So do you consider video games to be art? How do you define art? If you don't think they are art - will they become art? Will vidoe game artists or game designers (or programmers) ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Modigliani or Courbet?

I kind of look at some videogames as an instrument. Where musical instruments use keys, breath, strings and so on to manipulate sounds in real time, videogames use various controllers to manipulate animation in real time. So while many would say that character design, level design and arcitecture is art, I also say there is an art to playing games.

i dont think so. some games are - art is something you can appreciate without having any control over, so if you can sit watching a game without playing it and still enjoy yourself then in my opinion it is art. i dont know that games as a whole will ever become art - the best analogy i can give is this - you can take a picture or a painting of a naked women and that can be considered art, yet porn, which in many cases is the same thing, is not art. in short, games are porn...

I see art as a form of expression, and in that sense I suppose some videogames could be considered a form of art, just like some films and music.

I don't think we'll be studying videogames as a text in Year 12 English anytime soon though, :lol:

Just imagine your in English class and your teacher says;

"what is the signifiance of playing as Mario"
"what does Bowser represent"
"pause the game here, look at the expressions on the characters faces"

There's no question that character designs and levels and arcitecture is art. I mean what else would you call it? It doesn't have to be studied at high school to be art :S It is studied though. Animation is art, no two ways about it.

I guess it can be considered as art in the same way films can be conidered art - that they're trying to get across some sort of message. Either that or people overanalyse them too much to make their own meaning.

I think games are undoubtedly art.
TV shows and movies are art.
Music is art.

So why shouldn't games be considered art?

I'd like to elaborate more on this, but at the moment I really can't be bothered. :P

Later. ;)

Have a look at Ico and see for yourself :P

Not all videogames are art though, like sports titles for instance. It may contain 'art' but I define art differently, I'd say it's because I'm an artist myself.

Art is an example of creativity, mood and sound. The way you utilise sound (such as the Silent Hill series) is an art. It's used as a tool to symbolise fear, happiness and relaxation (amongst others).

Graphics similar in style such as Ico expresses themselves, you have to play it to realise what it means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=art

Games fall into a few of those definitions.

Personally I hate dictionary.com - it's good for a vague definition but horrible (and inaccurate) for anything specific. I try to go with the definitions of things like the Macquarie or the Oxford (my two favourite dictionaries :P)

Anyway on the topic at hand:

I think the vast majority of games are entertainment but not art. I define art by it's purpose - being the aim of expressing some kind of idea or emotion. I tend to be cynical and think that video games tend to be made with the purpose of either being entertaining (ie. keeping the person occupied) or much more likely - making money. Now it's definitly possible for things in other mediums to be art and make money. People like Charles Dickens, Mozart and Da Vinci all produced great works of art that were made with the purpose of making money (or at least were commissioned to be made). However I think at this stage when you look at 99.9% of video games they don't have much artisitic qualities to them. Yes there is very much an artistic nature to making video games - much in the same way that things like cooking or gardening have a strong artistic nature to them. But in my opinion this doesn't make them art. It's possible to use those mediums to create art for sure - but every meal that is cooked is definitly not art. (Especially the ones my brother cooks - he even screws up salads!)

I really look forward to the time when video games start being about more complex issues - and start being more mature. I believe there will come a time when there are video games considered art - and eventually there will be some video game designers who are considered great artists. There are definitly games that have verged on it but I don't think any games at this stage could really be called "art" or especially - a great work of art.

I hate art. I have never understood it, and probably never will. Video games therefore can't be art, because I enjoy them :D Art is dull and staring at a painting on a wall for 17 minutes, whereas Doom is about blowing shit up and having a good time. Still, a game like Metroid Prime would come closest, for me, to be considered art. With its complex level design, ambient and moody soundtrack etc, I think it's a piece of genius. Much better than some bloke sitting an apple on a car and calling it an expression of how lonely he feels in this horrid modern world of ours, whilst stroking his beard and going, "Mmmmmmmmm", a lot.

It looks like this discussion is going into the question "what is art?" and away from the common definition of art.

I think at the most basic meaning of the word "art," even a sports logo or company logo, or even a font is a type of art. You have these things in sports games that are attempting to go for realism.

Even in a sports game, artistic decisions have to be made. How much snow will I use if I still want decent visibiltity? What kind of tone will the umpire's voice actor assume to sound authentic? Will I sacrifice grass textures and crowd detail to allow better player models? What sort of blocking will I use with the team staff on the sideline?

I don't think appreciation of art has much to do with the classification of whether or not something is art. That is a matter of personal taste, and if that were a measure to classify something by, we'd have to reclassify things every time our mood changes.

What intention the creator has for the creation can affect whether or not it is art. Like if you are a sushi chef, and presentation of your meals means a lot, then there is an art to making food. If you are just trying to make sure that the ingredients of a sandwich are placed properly so that the thing doesn't fall apart, then the sandwich you created can't really be viewed as art.

Skill and effort also have no bearing on whether or not something is art I believe. The player models in soul calibur are beautiful, and I think they are definately art. The enemies in tales of symphonia are definately art too, and you can see various inspirations coming together, such as characters with european style armour, and asian style weapons. Some of them have angel or dragon wings, and you can really see effort put into a lot of those designs.
A game like driv3r though, has less imaginitive characters, but there were still cars to be be modeled, a colour pallete to be selected, and many many other artistic decisions to be made. I believe that as far as art direction goes, it takes more skill and effort to make games like soul calibur and tales of symphonia, but driv3r still has many elements that are considered art, whether we appreciate them or not.

Sorry for waffling on, but when I read the title of this thread, I didn't think there was really an issue to be discussed. If the topic is indeed about the philosphical question "what is art?" then this could go on for eternity, and I have merely expressed some conditions of art which I believe in.

I'm not sure is this is the place to discuss what art is, so thats why my early posts were along the lines of "of course videogames are art."

I think I should have been more specific about what I meant when I said "are video games art" - There are clearly different definitions of the word "art" that are in common usage. I was talking about art in the sense of can you call a video game designer an "artist". I'm really not talking about the artwork invovled in a video game but rather the game itself.

It's like with fictional books - there is "literature" as a specific genre even though technically all books are literature. Or movies - there are "art house" movies and "arty movies" and then there are crappy hollywood movies.

Games can be art, to say Videogames are art implies that every game on that shelf is an artwork, and I'd disagree with that. And even if I were to tip the hat and say they are artworks, a lot of them are decidedly poor ones.

I feel if a game manages to convey a distinct atmosphere or emotion (whether it be through the environments or the storytelling) then it's definitely an artwork on that level. Clearly the mind behind it has set out to express that feeling and has succeeded.

Also, if the art-direction is strong enough, a game can be considered an artwork on that level. Look at games like Zelda TWW, Ico (which also manages to convey a very distinct atmosphere that's unlike any game I've ever played), ZOE 2, Rez (which also is art on a musical level)...all of these have very impressive visuals that go beyond merely 'shiny' to being very deliberately designed to fit within the developer's vision for the game.

Not a lot of it may be exactly meaningful by standards set by 'legitimate' artists like say Munch, but the industry is getting there (and at the same time also moving further away from the ideal).

There are a few games out there that I consider to be examples of art within our videogame industry, but I wouldn't say videogames as a whole is an artform. Not yet anyway.

Games like the aforementioned titles (ICO, Wind Waker, Metroid Prime and so on) are definitely worthy examples of 'art' and I think each game does exactly what they are intended to do. Atmosphere, graphic styles, the way each element of a game (graphics, sound etc) all work together - it all is done so perfectly in these examples that if you cannot call them art, then you can't call them anything. They are just simply amazing creations and deserve the constant praise that they receive.

So in summary, I definitely consider some games to be art, but I wouldn't call the industry and artform just yet.